What a Criminal Psychologist Taught Me About Trauma, Empathy and Survival

00:00:00: I always say that if you have a propensity towards violence and want to be a functional psychopath, go into the military because you can have great deal of success there.

00:00:09: Online societies in communities are fantastic and very supportive.

00:00:14: We do need just back to basic community.

00:00:18: Human connections is our most powerful thing we have To heal.

00:00:30: Hi welcome another episode of Her Voice Impacts.

00:00:35: I'm Daniella Eon and we are amplifying women's stories globally

00:00:40: from

00:00:41: arts, entertainment culture business.

00:00:45: so many women with so many inspiring stories and journeys.

00:00:50: but today i have the pleasure of talking to Kerri Daines a well sought after forensic psychologist

00:01:00: and

00:01:00: her journey is very interesting.

00:01:02: She's written these amazing books, I'm going to be talking about the books but also we're gonna be talking.

00:01:18: I found sitting down with Carrie so enlightening because she has gone into the minds of some of the darkest stories of other people's lives and how she has mixed empathy and compassion in to this.

00:01:40: And

00:01:41: you will find it very interesting as well, to the heart of the human and how we are all human.

00:01:50: And at same time, creating community...to bring people back together again talking about their story!

00:02:00: Storytelling is what it's all about.

00:02:02: so let's check out Kerri Janes' and her amazing story.

00:02:06: At The Same Time.

00:02:11: It was such

00:02:11: a pleasure having you here on Her Voice Impacts.

00:02:14: As You Know soul story is so important for so many women listening and you definitely do have one.

00:02:21: I've had the pleasure of reading your book, The Dark Side Of The Mind which i have not been able to put down.

00:02:27: it is so intriguing!

00:02:30: And also how you're interweaved in that.

00:02:32: this is the beauty of your writing.

00:02:34: It's like you...and then the characters....as you said..the level probably is PG.

00:02:43: I

00:02:44: would like

00:02:44: to know more, of course.

00:02:47: This is a really interesting journey that you've

00:02:51: had and

00:02:53: i read in the beginning at book.

00:02:54: they used spend time with your grandmother watching movies And thats beautiful way.

00:03:00: start this story.

00:03:02: how you entered into being a forensic psychologist because

00:03:07: alot

00:03:07: people think psychology just talk to people all day sort out their problems.

00:03:14: It's a bit more than that.

00:03:16: My grandmother was Irish and she had a little flat, black-and-white television set because of course this is the seventies so all my cultural references come from television I realised when writing it but she used to enjoy watching Westerns!

00:03:35: So we watched both of them with...I developed a crush on John Wayne.

00:03:40: Oh my goodness.

00:03:41: Well, who wouldn't in those days?

00:03:42: I expected

00:03:43: all men to be six foot five

00:03:45: and riding a horse.

00:03:47: Exactly preferably preferably not many of those in Manchester.

00:03:52: And she'd always say when the villain came on oh he's abaddon is Abaddon or Abadjan Abadjian.

00:03:59: Yeah She used put Jai there and i think her grew up with these notions that There are good people and they're bad People.

00:04:05: because That's every fairytale were ever told isn't it?

00:04:10: And I thought well obviously, i want to be on the side of good and do something heroic.

00:04:34: Yeah,

00:04:35: I didn't read his children's books.

00:04:38: I read the books that Tales of The Unexpected were...I think what it was called, Tales Of The Unextpected is a whole collection of short stories and there was one about an elderly landlady who would taxidermy her bed-and breakfast visitors.

00:05:01: so you can imagine this must do!

00:05:04: The psyche of me as I'm growing up.

00:05:09: So,I think that i just felt attracted to a lifeless ordinary shall we say?

00:05:17: Though... I decided but actually later on in life That was going to become a forensic psychologist!

00:05:26: I initially Was hoping go into advertising.. I wanted be an advertising executive.

00:05:33: That makes sense, because psychology is marketing in a sense as well.

00:05:37: Exactly why I took psychology at university and they always say that actually my reason for pivoting was because of the influence of cider and hormones during Freshers Week Because it's just very good looking boy in law subsidiary.

00:05:59: so i decided to take the Law subsidiary.

00:06:03: I never plucked up the courage to speak to him.

00:06:06: No,

00:06:06: why?

00:06:08: This is it!

00:06:08: I was very quiet and shy... ...and looked at his beautiful head for a long time in psychology and law because I found that the subject fascinating.

00:06:28: so I got pulled by the law subsidiary And I loved psychology, so how could I marry the two together?

00:06:35: Well here we go.

00:06:36: We've got somebody who enjoys true crime... I'm going to become a forensic psychologist and somebody actually said to me that's no job for a girl.

00:06:45: Oh

00:06:46: well let's look at the data

00:06:50: Exactly!

00:06:50: So i think more men in forensic psychology is

00:06:54: over

00:06:55: eighty percent female.

00:06:57: So, but that was like a red rag to a bull.

00:07:00: To me I was very idealistic at the time you know.

00:07:04: so i thought no job for girl.

00:07:06: well im gonna show

00:07:08: ya.

00:07:09: You go in as lady.

00:07:10: yeah and this is great thing.

00:07:13: it kind of what am getting too.

00:07:16: if u didn't take step out even do that would have come conclusion that you'd be friends with my college even though its started marketing.

00:07:26: yes

00:07:28: it took you on the journey.

00:07:29: And sometimes we want everything to show up all at once and go, oh that's what I've got to do.

00:07:35: there my life is sorted but i don't think its that way.

00:07:38: This Is It...and get so many messages from aspiring forensic psychologists which I absolutely love But always say them Don't specialise too soon because you dont know Whether a passion is going to arise out of just doing general psychology degree and you might find that it's not forensic Psychology the floats your boat or as your passion.

00:08:04: It might be child psychology Or it might be marketing, or it might mean You know there are so many doors that psychology opens.

00:08:11: because yes Of course its science everything And everyone.

00:08:16: So I think don't make those decisions too soon.

00:08:20: wait and see which you know, which subject really speaks to you.

00:08:25: How important is it for that self-discovery to happen at a young age and be in the place of exploration?

00:08:33: I think... You've got to explore haven't you!

00:08:36: Take different avenues.

00:08:37: some might have dead ends And i was very keen on getting on the career ladder.

00:08:47: Why did

00:08:49: you have to...?

00:08:51: And actually, I don't know to be honest as... As I've moved through life.

00:08:58: You know?

00:08:58: I've pivoted at various different stages always held true to psychology but i think that you just got to be curious and see what-as they say What speaks to you and is a real passion.

00:09:12: And very lucky in the I can honestly say my work has been my passion for thirty years

00:09:21: Yes.

00:09:21: Which means that

00:09:24: if I didn't have to work, unfortunately i do but If I didn' t have to Work...I would anyway!

00:09:31: Yes?

00:09:32: I

00:09:32: love it- I Would Do It As A Hobby So.. I think very few people can say That.

00:09:38: But When You Can Say That Its Alive Well Lived Isn'T It?

00:09:43: It absolutely is.

00:09:44: and I think what we're seeing now in young women, the power of social media.

00:09:51: The choices have become very different to where they were at our time!

00:10:01: How do you explain from being in this area of psychology your entire life?

00:10:08: Where are the power of social media and this facade, because a lot of it kind is.

00:10:17: And then the reality what life is?

00:10:21: I know!

00:10:22: So many young girls now want to be influencers.

00:10:28: That's one area where women do make more money than men.

00:10:32: so i can understand... Yes.

00:10:35: ...and also women feel they need Only fans.

00:10:42: yes

00:10:43: because they're told that.

00:10:44: That's also a way to make lots of money and so I think there There's a lot selling your soul really, I think people do influencing Really well and really authentically.

00:10:57: but for many i think They are chasing the dream project an image of themselves that isn't truly them.

00:11:04: And I think the when what you do is out-of line with actually your core self, who you are and your values it just creates so many problems doesn't it?

00:11:17: I so agree with you!

00:11:18: The amount of women i have had the pleasure to sit down with said same thing.

00:11:22: if you're out of alignment...

00:11:24: Absolutely!

00:11:25: With

00:11:25: your soul now flesh in your body or mind might say one thing, but there's something distinctively different about the soul.

00:11:34: Now I don't know whether from your studies as a psychologist where do you see the level of this soul playing apart?

00:11:45: Well...I'm very practical and very practically minded.

00:11:50: so when i think Your your core values and you're your core motivation And what do you deeply care about?

00:12:09: Yes,

00:12:10: I think that as you say if If you follow those Then you never really will Work a day in your life.

00:12:18: That's the saying.

00:12:18: of course You will.

00:12:19: everybody has to work today in their lives but it will keep you going through those you know those times of hard slog and you can sleep deeply at night.

00:12:30: I think that it just, we talk a lot about happiness in the science of happiness... Yes!

00:12:36: ...and of course i always do boil it down to-to-to science.. And actually there is so much evidence they're about like as you say alignment with what you truly believe.

00:12:47: and i think so many people go through life not really knowing.

00:12:53: No, I was going to talk about the fact of like.

00:12:56: how does it work when you know possibly might have not grown up in a most amazing environment?

00:13:01: first for all your parents will care.

00:13:04: Take us were not very kind too or this system that you are invited into with school education just didn't have an opportunity

00:13:13: out.

00:13:13: is someone tap

00:13:16: into The resource of going, yes my soul is guiding me and I need to get away from all this.

00:13:24: Exactly!

00:13:25: And the thing it's easy to say isn't it?

00:13:27: Follow your passions follow yourself.

00:13:30: but actually practically how do you do that... Yes!

00:13:34: ...and also for last things thinking about.

00:13:36: You think about feeding children or what you're going to do when, you know... You can't read all right.

00:13:44: The majority of the men that I worked with in jail had very poor literacy skills and one of most important life-changing things for them was being taught to read and write.

00:14:00: Yes!

00:14:00: The basics

00:14:02: point at view Yeah but then i also see I'm going to use one of my clients here.

00:14:11: People know us Charlie Bronson, Charles Bronsone who is... To some people Britain's most violent and disruptive inmate in jail and certainly has been that during his time.

00:14:30: He's not that now, he is now seventy-seventy one.

00:14:33: I think Charlie is?

00:14:34: Wow!

00:14:35: He changed his name to Charles Salvador.

00:14:38: Oh okay Yeah

00:14:39: because Salvador means man and beast And he feels at times lost humanity in prison.

00:14:50: So I know so that reflects That Efforts, and he does put effort into maintaining his humanity.

00:15:02: And a big changing point for him was when somebody gave him whilst he was in solitary confinement... ...a piece of paper and pencil.

00:15:12: it's as simple as that!

00:15:14: You have to understand actually.. In jail someone can use the pencil....

00:15:19: As women?

00:15:20: Yeah exactly so there is level risk giving him a pencil but nevertheless, and the prison officer said to him come on Charlie you can't carry on like this.

00:15:31: why don't you try and write your feelings down?

00:15:34: draw your feelings.

00:15:37: And now charlie views himself as an artist and whenever he's struggling with flashbacks of things that have happened to him or rage against the system and authority he pours it into his artwork his passion and that is his soul spilling out onto paper.

00:15:59: And it's really enabled him to turn his behaviour around, also just find so much value and meaning and worth.

00:16:09: he has raised thousands for charity via his artwork.

00:16:14: He had ninety

00:16:16: books

00:16:16: published whilst an inmate.

00:16:19: So this changed the story you know, just the self-esteem and achievement that allows.

00:16:32: So I think for an awful lot of people really is a matter what opportunities have they had or not?

00:16:41: And i lecture to A-level students who are thinking of going into psychology and they do love some gory stories.

00:16:49: And, of course... They all love the word psychopath!

00:16:51: Everybody's intrigued by the word psychopath.

00:16:54: Why?

00:16:54: It's because it is on social media everywhere.

00:16:57: Are you dating a

00:16:58: psychopath?!

00:16:59: I'm sleeping with a psychopath!

00:17:01: Seriously?!

00:17:02: And who hasn't referred to somebody as a psycho?

00:17:06: You know their Psycho Box!

00:17:08: Their Psycho

00:17:09: Air!

00:17:10: Yeah, if I hear that from somebody on a date.

00:17:13: I'm out the door!

00:17:14: I don't want to hear about your cycle...

00:17:16: Red flags?

00:17:17: If he's a

00:17:17: psycho?!

00:17:18: Exactly.

00:17:19: but what i talk to them about in amongst this quite lurid subject of psychopaths is actually What separates A very successful highly functional psychopath From Somebody who Is a dysfunctional Psychopath?

00:17:39: And often it is the ability to, you know control your impulses combined with education and opportunities.

00:17:52: So signs of psychopathy being risk averse ,being fearless .

00:18:00: Being able make quick decisions which some people would see as impulsivity.

00:18:06: they are things that we look for in business people.

00:18:10: Yeah, so can be actually highly functional in certain types of environments?

00:18:17: So that just shows you it's not necessarily the individual but how are those individuals shaped by opportunities they're given and control their dials I suppose or turn down their impulsivity?

00:18:34: Can they turn up their risk-taking when they've done a little bit of calculation?

00:18:40: That's what separates somebody.

00:18:41: And, of course it does help if you don't have a propensity towards violence.

00:18:45: I always say that If You Have A Propensity Towards Violence and You Want To Be A Functional Psychopath Go Into The Military Because You Can Have A Great Deal Of Success There.

00:18:54: Oh my goodness.

00:18:56: Fascinating, isn't it?

00:18:58: I do think that there are niches for most people but whether or not they find them and so many get lost

00:19:07: Yes!

00:19:07: They get lost And then end

00:19:09: up.

00:19:10: So many traumatic and dysfunctional and discriminatory things happen to people along the way shape their journey.

00:19:20: Often society doesn't even recognise this human, but I think it's very important that we do recognise the humanity.

00:19:30: It is amazing because I hear there is compassion and empathy And some people would just be black-and-white saying

00:19:39: No!

00:19:41: These people have done horrid things But you've had to see both sides Because obviously you sat down with many people and even women in particular, who have had to defend their life.

00:19:57: And they're children's life?

00:19:59: There is a reason why the did what they do it.

00:20:03: so you must have to filter through so much before we get down there.

00:20:07: real person.

00:20:10: yet absolutely and what I try maintain as rational compassion And that's a concept, I got from... Oh gosh!

00:20:23: His name is Richard Bloom.

00:20:24: I do apologise to him if i've gotten this wrong but there was a wonderful book called Against Empathy and it talks against empathy when you break down two things.

00:20:43: So there's effective empathy.

00:20:45: so feeling how another person feels if you tell me that You've had a terrible day or, you know.

00:20:52: If you feel sad then I'm gonna feel sad for you.

00:20:56: But There's intellectual empathy which is knowing why?

00:20:59: You feel sad.

00:21:00: So this the knowing and the feeling Two separate things.

00:21:05: yes

00:21:06: actually if you feel too much That can be a real hindrance to making good decisions.

00:21:14: Imagine, in a forensic context as you say people have had dreadful lives and yet they've also done terrible inexcusable things that made choices or wrong.

00:21:29: so if I were over empathise with them Then that would be problematic.

00:21:36: I wouldn't be able to do a good risk assessment and i wouldn't Be able To say when necessary actually, I recommend That this person is not released on parole.

00:21:48: Wow

00:21:50: So it's about.

00:21:51: you've

00:21:51: been in that position where you luckily

00:21:54: for me It's the judge that makes the decision right.

00:21:58: there's three members of a panel for a parole board so it's not me that makes that decision but they look to me for a good scientific risk assessment.

00:22:08: That is not based on my emotions, so its about balancing that rationality.

00:22:16: so absolute clear logic.

00:22:19: what do i know?

00:22:21: Strip all emotions out of it.

00:22:23: If this means that these person needs to spend another ten years in jail, so be it.

00:22:28: I've got to be a realistic about who they are and what their capabilities Are on?

00:22:32: What might happen to them in the future?

00:22:33: that then my result is not an other offense.

00:22:37: But also i always want to bring compassion to that And i think The difference between Compassion & Empathy As i say It's A fantastic Fantastic book Is That Compassion is about recognising that we all have rights, human right and always having those rights in the back of our mind.

00:23:03: So for example if I'm assessing somebody who's dangerous they have the right to be assessed very thoroughly.

00:23:11: Right They've got a right For me not only look at factors which make them dangerous but also look for protective factors.

00:23:20: What would make them less dangerous?

00:23:23: Yes, and

00:23:24: look for ways that we can understand their story And treat them as human beings and give them the you know they're most Opportunity that we possibly can provide them with in The environment that there at.

00:23:42: That for me is compassion.

00:23:45: So it's not so much that I am a. you know i'm not a bleeding heart liberal I'm not being accused of, you know but that is what i try and bring to everything.

00:23:57: And it's funny.

00:23:58: a lot of times i've been accused of being a man-hater which is ridiculous!

00:24:04: It does sound

00:24:04: ridiculous...I

00:24:06: think its because ive worked with men who have done some dreadful things..

00:24:10: I did read in your book

00:24:13: yes?

00:24:13: Hmm.

00:24:15: I'm not going to make excuses, i always say that violence is a choice but some people have fewer choices than others.

00:24:23: Yeah And I think that people sometimes think that I go softer on the women That I work with then the men and that's absolutely not true.

00:24:34: and I also think that um People think that because I appear on television in crime shows, and i think it's very important to say no this behavior is unacceptable.

00:24:46: And i point out where society goes wrong as well in terms of blaming victims for example or maintaining stereotypes about victims.

00:24:57: but that's not me manhating because if i hated men then trust me i wouldn't be able to sit in a room with somebody who has raped and sit, really try to view them as not just their actions but a whole human being.

00:25:16: And trying unearth that story... Wow!

00:25:21: Unearthing

00:25:22: is the story out of someone who has done horrific things for other humans.

00:25:26: That's gift to be able to unearth this story.

00:25:30: You have

00:25:31: work on it.

00:25:31: It's skill you can learn.

00:25:36: I

00:25:37: don't think that i could stomach it and i think its like if you had personal experience around or something.

00:25:45: You can get very quiet.

00:25:47: the emotion comes up, oh

00:25:49: yes just not right.

00:25:52: should tell your story and i

00:25:54: love this because i want to pivot into said one quote.

00:25:57: if u dont tell your stories will tell me about that?

00:26:04: Right, it's a quote from The Examined Life.

00:26:08: Oh okay!

00:26:08: And again I can't tell you...I've got so many books and i'm very good at writing titles but not necessarily reading them.

00:26:15: So again I apologise But its is the book.

00:26:18: It's a very small book actually but it's written by a psychotherapist.

00:26:22: Okay

00:26:23: They're very gentle stories.

00:26:27: There are some lovely things that you can learn from it.

00:26:29: Yes That is a quote.

00:26:34: truly believe that if you don't give voice to your story so, That YOU yourself understand your story.

00:26:44: That YOU understand it but also somebody else has witnessed it.

00:26:49: I think thats one of the most important things therapists do is actually witness someone's journey and their truth because often these people have not been recognised

00:27:02: at all.

00:27:03: Nobody nobody has seen it and nobody is said to them.

00:27:07: I'm so Sorry for some of the dreadful things that have happened to you And this was wrong, and you were failed and you are let down?

00:27:16: And it's okay to feel angry about that It's ok to feel sad about that.

00:27:21: So if you don't have those two things understanding your story in somebody To witness it for you sensitively then that story will fester and it'll, you know... All the young people are talking about triggers aren't they at the moment?

00:27:41: Everything comes with a trigger.

00:27:42: We're

00:27:42: all psychologists now!

00:27:44: Yeah we are.

00:27:47: It's TikTok psychology.

00:27:48: I don't know how to describe it.

00:27:53: really something drives me absolutely mad but its rarely very scientific And it is, these brief takeaways.

00:28:02: But nevertheless yes we are triggered by things and in ways that really quite surprising and subtle sometimes... ...and then we flip into you know unhealthy child modes or whether that's us becoming a bully.. ..or whether thats us becoming um you know helpless or there's just a myriad of... These

00:28:29: are learned childhood behaviours, aren't they?

00:28:32: So I suppose you would call it acting out which is a phrase again that i don't particularly like but people will act out.

00:28:39: And the number of times I've seen people repeat their histories over and over again until eventually they can go oh gosh yeah now I understand it!

00:28:50: Now I see this cycle And that's the first step and then it's right.

00:28:56: Okay, but now we've got to start to try and break that cycle.

00:29:00: Yes!

00:29:02: But yeah... It is amazing really.

00:29:04: I do think everything that we experience gets encoded one way or another into us.

00:29:10: That not just say people who have traumatic Backgrounds will go on to have terrible lives because that's absolutely not the case.

00:29:19: And it doesn't mean people who live through trauma are dangerous, I work with a small percentage of the population but we all carry childhood trauma those childhood experiences... I've had therapy myself and its amazing!

00:29:42: Maren seeks a psychologist having her own therapy.

00:29:48: We've got to normalise this because if we don't have anyone to talk too, who are we talking then?

00:29:56: Yeah and sometimes I think well is the therapist doing job that some really good friends would do?

00:30:05: Yes!

00:30:07: If you've got a really good network of friends That's the important thing.

00:30:15: I've got a brilliant friend who told me when i was engaged to be married, You know, she's very dramatic.

00:30:42: So I say oh you know We're getting the drama queen again.

00:30:47: Let's let's try and cut through that And she'll tell me when i'm doing something That I shouldn't do or i've been ridiculous Or my ego has overtaken Me.

00:30:55: so I think honest friends they are usually people's first witnesses aren't They?

00:31:01: yes

00:31:01: everybody who have a social support network.

00:31:05: No no?

00:31:10: Connected now because we're all on you know, these device that were more disconnected.

00:31:16: We are more disconnected than ever.

00:31:19: and what was it?

00:31:19: That I saw the other day.

00:31:21: there a lot of people are forming relationships and falling in love with their AI companion story.

00:31:29: they're marrying them.

00:31:30: I don't know where

00:31:32: that's t. so it's chat.

00:31:33: GPT is the best conversation that you've had.

00:31:38: No, i mean Yeah, but this is where

00:31:41: we heading.

00:31:42: Where are we heading?

00:31:44: And I think that was so bombarded.

00:31:46: you know never have we had So many ways to connect But also so many ways To be exposed too problematic and damaging Information.

00:31:59: it's

00:32:01: yes

00:32:02: i think the world Is really very frightening.

00:32:04: i'm glad That i don't Have children if im honest

00:32:07: Yeah, and I can understand that.

00:32:09: And i feel like because we're entering a whole new era it's all of these new theories or new ways... ...of doing things have suddenly appeared.. ..and you just think how do I navigate when I've lived in a particular way?

00:32:24: Now I gotta establish myself.

00:32:26: As as we go through there'll be more return to basics.

00:32:32: Yes simple life!

00:32:35: It's quite interesting, isn't it?

00:32:36: That I think that a lot of people spend a lot money to go somewhere where their phone is taken from them.

00:32:43: They have digital detox.

00:32:45: Have you ever heard... Yeah!

00:32:46: It's crazy!

00:32:47: They eat simple clean

00:32:50: food

00:32:51: and they talk with other people.

00:32:54: People spend thousands pounds on this.

00:32:58: Let me tell you but I heard the craziest thing.

00:33:04: someone had said on some social media that it'll come to a stage where people will pay for someone to take them for a walk.

00:33:13: Yeah, i know.

00:33:17: so if you go into the forest and have your sound bath we talk about all of these different therapy ways of doing things.

00:33:29: And some are really quiet, you know people will spend thousands pounds to go and sit in cold water or... You name it!

00:33:35: Something to smoke sage over them.

00:33:38: I think whatever works for you i've got a very open mind but I do think that sometimes you have to think right..I need to go back to the hierarchy of needs.

00:33:49: Yes Madeline yes

00:33:51: Go Back To Actually Very Very Basic Things.

00:33:56: And I think that, and I learned this working in secure units.

00:34:00: The importance of community...

00:34:03: Yeah!

00:34:04: ...I think we all need to find our tribe.

00:34:08: We really

00:34:09: do.

00:34:10: There's been periods of my life when i've been desperately unhappy.. ..and there have been periods for me where I've been lonely.

00:34:18: I understand loneliness is a physical pain.

00:34:23: I do believe that.

00:34:24: We're now starting to get the scientific research back up just how damaging loneliness can be, and again at our core we are all –to a greater or lesser extent– social animals And i think that we need go back to basics maybe rather than looking for our tribe online.

00:34:50: online societies and communities can be fantastic, very supportive.

00:34:54: We do need to just go back to basic community.

00:34:58: that's why I personally take time...I'm chairwoman of a local park.

00:35:07: That is right.

00:35:08: you told me about this

00:35:10: at the Park.

00:35:12: I walk my dog, which is my particular form of mindfulness.

00:35:18: But also.

00:35:18: i know everybody in that park and there's a cafe And um We sit and we drink tea and we are people who In any other circumstance would not meet each other And maybe they would meet eachother and think well They're not like me so i'm not going to talk to them you know?

00:35:40: actually a strange group, but of people who have just got wonderful stories.

00:35:51: And they've all got their idiosyncrasies and some of them I've got mental health problems... ...and some believe in quite strange things!

00:36:00: Some are very straight down the line you know?

00:36:04: Fascinating!

00:36:05: Middle class.

00:36:06: we get together and this is really important.

00:36:10: We don't judge each other We just talk and we laugh, and we learn from each other.

00:36:16: And actually for me that is the... If I could recreate that That's best form of therapy i think For people

00:36:28: To be in a circle where you're having conversation.

00:36:32: but Is it also to physical thing?

00:36:34: Is there something going on chemically?

00:36:36: I'm not scientist enough.

00:36:40: There must

00:36:40: see some things.

00:36:42: I'm sure that the oxytocin... Yes.

00:36:45: And and i just think it's a huge stress relief, to be outside in nature as well

00:36:53: helps with that too.

00:36:54: but

00:36:56: you know from having worked with people who were diagnosed with various psychotic disorders maybe would hear voices or believed some strange, what most people would say?

00:37:09: I read about that in your book.

00:37:12: Strange things.

00:37:15: Or plagued by voices of strange experiences and we as staff members are not encouraged to talk ourselves anyway because they're a boundaries.

00:37:34: It's necessary in forensic circles, but it can be also to patients and possibly also staffs detriment.

00:37:45: And what I noticed was when these people were taken into community groups hearing voices groups and they sat with other people from all walks of life.

00:37:56: so actually the person in that group might well have been a mental health nurse and this is how I cope with it.

00:38:06: And actually, I live my life you know?

00:38:08: I succeed by the fact that i have these voices...and yeah here are things that I believe.

00:38:16: other people don't believe them but they're listened to by the rest of the group without judgment.

00:38:22: everybody learns from eachother It normalises their experience And just it provides a level of support that I think.

00:38:33: sometimes professionals in their ivory towers, and so often clients used to say well you've got perfect life.

00:38:42: You have no problems.

00:38:45: Yeah

00:38:46: let me tell ya.

00:38:51: Have you got a few hours?

00:38:55: Yes!

00:38:58: Not just Kerry Danes the forensic psychologist, but Kerry Dane's The Human.

00:39:03: Yeah even though a lot of Forensic psychologists have been dissuaded from that.

00:39:08: you know I've had supervisors in the past That tell me to be You Know robotic like an automaton.

00:39:13: But this is it.

00:39:14: i think that then you've not got the human connection and I Just Think human connections are the most powerful thing We Have To Heal.

00:39:25: Yes, yes without human connection i don't think that we are able to even process the emotions because you haven't got anything to balance it back like sitting there on your own.

00:39:38: You know you can be tell me yeah yes yes and then that's a whole mirroring thing is a message It's a message is coming back at you.

00:39:48: Yeah, and of course it can get very twisted in that the reflection can come back somewhat distorted And That Is When It Is Helpful To Have A Trained Psychotherapist.

00:39:58: Absolutely!

00:40:03: I was going to ask you Kerry when You Look Back Across Your Journey Which chapter In As A Book?

00:40:11: Which Chapter Still Whispers To You Something That Has Shaped and strengthened you.

00:40:19: What is that small whisper?

00:40:22: Oh gosh, I think the outside of the mind.

00:40:25: there are so many moments in that book because what stories am i going to tell?

00:40:31: how am I gonna pick ten stories from my career?

00:40:34: And well don't want to tell stories about serial killers.

00:40:38: Don't wanna tell stories that glamourise crime.

00:40:41: I'm goin' to tell the stories That affected me.

00:40:45: So it became a memoir of my journey and The way that my mindset changed you know going from that very black-and-white Mindset, but I developed them watching Weston's to where i am now And It's funny.

00:41:02: I got a bad review on Amazon.

00:41:03: It said there was too much of the author in this memoir.

00:41:11: Yeah?

00:41:12: This is if he can't please all other people

00:41:14: never.

00:41:15: But writing that book Was so cathartic for me.

00:41:21: I cried all the way through it with this second.

00:41:24: Yeah, my you know My hair was falling out without book for various reasons but it was.

00:41:32: It was so catharsis and i didn't realize how many things i'd squashed

00:41:36: suppressed.

00:41:37: yeah Did you find a healing?

00:41:39: Was it healing for you?

00:41:41: It was absolutely So.

00:41:43: it was just...I just went through a period of time where I was just..yeah She's typing and sobbing at the same time.

00:41:51: Wow!

00:41:52: It makes it sound like a really miserable book, your house got jokes in there...

00:41:57: I can't believe that i laughed on some sections actually.

00:42:01: I hope you're laughing.

00:42:03: The sense of humour is so important but there are many moments or things which have been learned from my clients.

00:42:13: I think it was the first line, i can't remember what that is but something to do with how i've learned from my clients.

00:42:19: It's a two way street and wanted yes yeah... But you know about my father's death in the second.

00:42:30: I wrote about all kinds of things, but i wrote about my early experiences in the dark side with mine.

00:42:36: Yeah and you are a brave young woman!

00:42:41: Situations that you were putting out like...I would have freaked

00:42:44: out.

00:42:46: You know?

00:42:46: I did have very abusive relationship at the age of twenty one-twenty two And these

00:42:55: are things not spoken about too, remember?

00:42:57: Like a lot of young girls suppress this and it's okay.

00:43:01: Yeah!

00:43:02: And I think that people think oh well only happens to weak women...

00:43:08: Mm-mm.

00:43:08: ...and actually It happened for me at my most vulnerable because they will recognise you and pick your off.

00:43:17: But For Me Well, it was a baptism of fire and it was learning curve.

00:43:24: And It very painful.

00:43:27: but I think that experience then later on when i became the victim of stalker

00:43:37: Yes!

00:43:38: I read about what is going on here?

00:43:40: That person just sounded utterly...

00:43:43: I know.

00:43:43: so he went to victim of a Stalker around sort of two thousand twelve years before.

00:43:50: I knew I know, and that felt very similar to me.

00:43:54: I felt like i was being subjected To this unwanted relationship.

00:44:00: so it's very much

00:44:01: a cycle.

00:44:01: yeah Yes the emotions.

00:44:04: And

00:44:04: actually there was a pivotal moment for me where I thought you know?

00:44:07: I'm in an Abusive relationship with a man that I've never met Yeah, but would never want to have any contact with.

00:44:16: yes

00:44:16: But do feel the same feeling

00:44:18: really angry.

00:44:19: how bloody dare he?

00:44:20: ya You know, I've been there done that.

00:44:25: So it got me very angry and the anger was harnessed.

00:44:31: And then i started to you now a trustee for the Susie Lamplu Trust which runs The National Stalking Helpline.

00:44:39: I am the chair of the national stalking consortium

00:44:45: who look at that

00:44:46: shape the way we respond in law and policing To stalking and there's a lot of work to be done, but you know we can save lives doing that.

00:44:58: So would I change any of it?

00:45:01: Do you know what?

00:45:02: I absolutely wouldn't.

00:45:05: I really wouldn't despite the fact that...I mean i don't want to give too much weight But both those events took me to really terrible places Terrible terrible places Really they really did.

00:45:20: And The the humiliation that I felt as a twenty-two year old when i eventually did take this man, who had been seen for short period of time but was very abusive to court and uh...the way it was reported on in media.

00:45:44: You know?

00:45:46: It's something that thought would never recover from my career which is over And actually, it hasn't turned out to be like that.

00:45:58: I don't believe the what doesn't kill you makes me stronger because sometimes What doesn't Kill You just traumatizes you terribly for a long time.

00:46:09: But with help and friends and credit myself here With a bit of grit

00:46:22: Yeah,

00:46:23: you can get through but I do appreciate that.

00:46:25: You know i've had opportunities.

00:46:28: the others haven't and something that...I thank my lucky stars for- I have a great dad!

00:46:40: My early experiences of men were very positive so it wasn't me going to repeat abusive relationships.

00:46:53: That is extraordinary.

00:46:54: I'm so grateful for that, otherwise i think the story could have turned out really very differently

00:47:01: Could've kept going on and it's a beautiful thing you had with your relationship.

00:47:05: Yeah no, always thankful of that As much as he used to drive me absolutely bats at time Drive me mad more than any other.

00:47:18: but yeah I am very grateful.

00:47:22: background that I come from.

00:47:24: It's very important, isn't it?

00:47:27: As a daughter or young woman to have the relationship with their father if they can...

00:47:35: And if not then there is no father figure and i think its so important for men as well!

00:47:42: So many men

00:47:43: don't grow up

00:47:43: without Father Figure.

00:47:46: Absolutely we are seeing more and more of the absent father you know, whether he's not there or we just works a lot.

00:47:54: Or just not able to integrate in some way because they too probably didn't have a great upbringing with their own father

00:48:04: I know.

00:48:05: but having said that i also think and maybe this is one of the good things about tiktok generation Is That I Do Notice That Men Of My Generation are really putting more effort into being good fathers.

00:48:22: And sometimes that comes from a place of recognizing what they didn't get,

00:48:27: so... Yes yes we aren't seeing and it's more visual because we're seeing so much.

00:48:32: but was at all hidden before?

00:48:34: We did know

00:48:34: you

00:48:35: weren't going to go the neighbor's house and watch them see what their doing.

00:48:38: now were seen on device like oh thats what people do!

00:48:42: I know A guilty pleasure, which is reality TV.

00:48:50: Yes!

00:48:52: It's terrible.

00:48:53: Yeah

00:48:53: I know it's dreadful but its all

00:48:55: about human behaviour.

00:48:57: Exactly exactly.

00:48:58: yeah i'm watching it for professional reasons My brain cells.

00:49:03: But one of the things and there are so much Terrible thing that we see on tv One good thing from reality tv Is.

00:49:11: we've seen the birth of bromance.

00:49:14: I've

00:49:15: seen men start to have deeper friendships with the girls, and i'm so here for it.

00:49:22: I cheer when I see young man crying on television!

00:49:27: It's

00:49:28: so absurd yes but has shifted that way.

00:49:30: you look at lovers blind in all of them.

00:49:32: there are many different countries, so many seasons now where they're like yeah doing is.

00:49:40: It's like, wow interesting and they're getting a bit more in depth than opening themselves up and stuff.

00:49:46: so

00:49:47: I think that you know it's not all doom-and-gloom but we need to recognise an encourage.

00:49:55: there's so much negative input for men on the internet of course The manosphere!

00:50:02: So the more hugging and crying they can do when reality TV the better, I think.

00:50:08: Well it helps

00:50:08: the world and it helps us heal because we're here to heal where i do believe that were on this earth to heal something within ourselves and in humanity.

00:50:19: well there's a great poem That is quoted more than one occasion in court.

00:50:27: so am I allowed to swear?

00:50:30: You can yes

00:50:33: Trigger.

00:50:34: warning for a swerward Yeah, which of course is a Philip Larking poem.

00:50:39: They fuck you up your mom and dad.

00:50:41: they don't mean to but they do... ...they give all the faults that have had ad extra just for YOU!

00:50:47: But they were fucked in their turn by men in high-topped hats & coats who half time was soppy stern and half at each other's throats.. ..but misery has passed from man to man.

00:51:00: it deepens like a coastal shelf.

00:51:02: Get out as quickly you can and don't have kids yourself.

00:51:06: Oh gosh!

00:51:08: So apologies to Larkin if I didn't get that quite correct but...

00:51:13: Wow, wow.

00:51:16: Yeah it is true And like i said its a cycle It's the loop we all must do work To try and stop You know?

00:51:26: Here We are talking about women and them having You know, the desire to have impact within whatever they choose to do in their life.

00:51:36: Like you said it's a journey right?

00:51:38: What can you leave us with Kerry?

00:51:41: that really can give that inspiration too...

00:51:45: Alright so I'm going to give some women inspirational quotes that work for me.

00:51:52: Madonna has never been an icon of mine.

00:51:56: So there are lots of reasons why i wouldn't point to Madonna For self-help but she did.

00:52:02: She did talk about the power of reinventing herself because, of course she's reenacting her image over again.

00:52:10: And actually there are times when I thought right i need to reinvent myself whatever that means for me in that moment.

00:52:19: so I would say a quote is life as series new beginnings and no matter how dark things seem You have to realise that actually the sun is going come out at some point and happier days are around a corner.

00:52:39: And I always say people, nothing stays the same even if you want it too!

00:52:45: Even when we're in beautiful place.

00:52:54: but equally So, I think it's about taking your power in these moments and thinking how am i going to actively reinvent myself.

00:53:04: And how im gonna actively do things so that when the sun comes out you can make most of

00:53:13: them?

00:53:13: Yes, that is brilliant.

00:53:15: I do love that and it's true things have to change.

00:53:19: you can't just be in the same moment for rest of your life and reinvention something as we go through a journey of life when we have to press into them throughout timeline get certain time line what i think this now time for me.

00:53:40: do this and reinvent into this.

00:53:41: or take on extra, you know skills.

00:53:45: Or go back to study and...and do those things that you just didn't get a chance

00:53:49: to do!

00:53:51: I'm going to be fifty-two in February.

00:53:54: Congratulations!

00:53:55: No no, fifty two in February.

00:53:57: And i am still Reinventing myself, you know and sometimes you have to do so out of necessity.

00:54:05: You know that I've lost my hearing And so yeah i'm now deaf and that makes things difficult to work in the forensic arena.

00:54:12: but um You know?

00:54:16: I don't know what's going to happen in the future But I just know that i'm going to actively Evolve with it as much as I possibly can Yeah, and try and try an Shape It As Much as I Possibly Can.

00:54:31: It is amazing that we didn't even get in to talk about the fact you're able to liberate

00:54:38: this degree.

00:54:39: I know, but it's

00:54:39: ninja level as

00:54:40: well!

00:54:41: But still...I mean its amazing because there are no pauses between us just like..we're talking and your'e all happening.

00:54:51: Its tiring though, really tiring.

00:54:54: And

00:54:54: if you've got people who cover their mouth or people Yeah, or know that you're deaf and so start to talk like

00:55:02: this.

00:55:02: It makes it

00:55:03: harder too.

00:55:04: Words because

00:55:05: what are you trying

00:55:06: to say?

00:55:07: Exactly!

00:55:07: What on earth do you doing yeah?

00:55:09: Because no one walks around going hello how

00:55:12: I... No exactly its like brick support isn't when they talk to people And we don't know the language So they just talk very slowly and very loudly.

00:55:20: Oh god

00:55:22: It's better just to talk normally and then you're going, okay We're just having a normal conversation.

00:55:26: And I'm sure if something you didn't hear or understand You'd be like what can you say again?

00:55:31: Like it's quite simple right.

00:55:33: Yeah, you do get embarrassed i think.

00:55:35: well i get embarrassed If you ask several times over.

00:55:38: so some people are easier To understand than others but that's...you know That's life anyway isn't?

00:55:44: Well, I tell you what.

00:55:46: You're amazing.

00:55:46: Nothing stays

00:55:47: the same.

00:55:47: we are constantly... No

00:55:49: and were made to evolve at next level.

00:55:54: or when does this evolution stop?

00:55:57: But i don't think it does!

00:55:59: I suppose then probably it will stop.

00:56:00: Then who knows?

00:56:02: We wouldn't want go into that conversation.

00:56:04: What happens after

00:56:05: THAT?!

00:56:07: I want

00:56:07: us to just quickly tell us about the books, please.

00:56:10: Please put them up again because i wanna see them all

00:56:12: right okay?

00:56:13: so this is my little sales percent.

00:56:15: no well i love the books and i think they need to be talked about

00:56:20: now.

00:56:20: this is the first book The Dark Side of the Minds.

00:56:22: So This Is Very Much A Memoir But As You Say Intertwined With Stories Of Clients Who Have taught me so much.

00:56:33: So you get to read about my failures and my successes, how my mindset really changes really...so it is an evolution the book!

00:56:47: And then the second book which I did have fun writing..it's got a bit less of me in it.

00:56:52: as you can see The Dark Side Of Mind sold enough that they allowed.

00:56:57: So the other one.

00:57:00: Yeah, no I got a headless person on The Other Book.

00:57:06: so you know you've made it when your face is allowed but i was contractually obliged not to smile looking very serious

00:57:14: Very forensic of view

00:57:16: Very Forensic yeah.

00:57:18: and this are stories of madness badness and misunderstandings that we have about the people that I work with.

00:57:31: and you know there are certainly emotional moments in this book for me but also, i had a lot of fun writing it.

00:57:39: Wow!

00:57:40: I can't wait to get into the second book...I want to thank you so much Kerry being on Her Voice at Impacts and giving us part of your story interesting life that you have had as well and continue to because

00:58:01: fingers crossed.

00:58:03: Yes absolutely!

00:58:05: And I'm looking forward more books.

00:58:07: That's what I want.

00:58:08: Yeah, well

00:58:10: that was a challenge for me at the moment but yeah... I've got to write more books haven't i in the future?

00:58:14: You do

00:58:15: have to write More Books and I kind of feel like you're going into books where characters are gonna build into big trilogies And they just continue on!

00:58:25: Maybe

00:58:26: some crime fiction books based on untrue stories Yeah.

00:58:32: Oh, I'd be in it straight away and usually i'm more of a like...I like to read a lot books about theory and psychology all that kind of thing but I don't have much of a mind.

00:58:44: just sit and read these type of books.

00:58:47: the this one was like..i just can't put down couldn't Put It Down The Dark Side Of The Mind.

00:58:51: That is music to my ears And hopefully you

00:58:53: know there's little bit.

00:58:55: There Is Psychology In There.

00:58:56: Its Interweaved

00:58:59: Yeah, but the thing I like is that you're in there too.

00:59:02: The weaving of it actually really interesting because i was able to come out and go okay yeah... And your writing is so visual!

00:59:12: Like im immersed straight into this situation.

00:59:16: Some of its scary.. I can't read this

00:59:18: at night.

00:59:22: A little bit scared.... But

00:59:24: then everything's ok story, it's okay.

00:59:28: It's not you going in there but I feel very immersed into the storyline each time... Each new chapter is like whoa

00:59:36: good what am i expecting?

00:59:38: I would also hope that it will challenge your way of thinking about... It did!

00:59:42: It really did yeah

00:59:45: and I would love to have an actual personal chat with you at one point because there are a lot things they're very relatable

00:59:56: quite

00:59:56: like, oh I need to have a chat with her about this but that'll be for another time.

01:00:01: Yeah no absolutely we're always available by Zoom!

01:00:04: Oh bless

01:00:06: you.

01:00:06: and where's Captain?

01:00:09: Captain Ferbentator off!

01:00:10: Oh he's gone!

01:00:18: Go

01:00:19: get him so we can say goodbye to him at least... He needs to have it having a good bye moment on Dalen Captain!

01:00:30: Oh, you had a big nap from your other nap.

01:00:32: Also

01:00:33: it's very cheeky little thing but whenever he is in front of the camera or seems to fall asleep his like a door mouse.

01:00:40: Look at this little face though.

01:00:42: It's so... Oh, it's tired.

01:00:44: Kerry is tired.

01:00:48: Absolutely beautiful thank-you

01:00:49: so much.

01:00:50: Thank

01:00:51: You Kerry, it was a blessing.

01:00:53: Thank you.

01:00:54: It has been a pleasure.

01:00:55: Talk

01:00:55: soon

01:00:57: Bye bye.